Chase Dimond, Founder and Partner, Boundless Labs
At 27, Chase Dimond is already considered a marketing veteran. In addition to overseeing the marketing teams of various companies, Dimond has also founded many of his own ventures, such as Soundjuice and ZenPup.
His most recent company is Boundless Labs, an agency that focuses on email marketing for ecommerce—with a special focus on CBD companies. Thanks to its modern and human-centered approach to emails, Boundless Labs acquired 30 clients with six- to eight-figure revenues in a little over a year. Boundless Labs has also helped drive over $25 million in email attributable revenue over the last 19 months.
Dimond has also secured mind-blowing results for those clients, such as sending emails with 40% to 70% open rates (compared to the industry average of 20% to 25%) and helping companies generate 20% to 30% of their total revenue with emails.
If you’re looking to master the art of email marketing, this podcast episode with Dimond is a great place to start! He gives us a sneak peek into the best practices he uses with his own clients at Boundless Labs, along with other helpful insights.
ATTENTION: We’re excited to announce that Chase Dimond has partnered with Foundr to teach one of the modules in our course, Ecommerce Masters. Check it out here.
- How Dimond got his start in marketing, growth, and acquisitions
- An overview of Dimond’s ventures, from CBD pet products to a social media platform for musicians
- Why Dimond decided to launch his email marketing agency, Boundless Labs, and how he scaled from zero to 30 clients in a year
- How design sets Boundless Labs apart from the rest
- Dimond’s perspective on email marketing as a source of revenue for his clients
- The importance of the human touch when it comes to customer retention and acquisition
- How Dimond achieves a 40-70% open rate on customer thank-you emails
Full Transcript of Podcast with Chase Dimond
Nathan: The first question I ask everyone that comes on is how’d you get your job?
Chase: Yeah, I love that question. I want to quickly start with what my job is and kind of work backwards. Right now I run an email marketing agency for e-commerce brands and that wasn’t always the case. A couple of years back, I worked for two or three different companies, and as I left each company that I worked for, I kind of kept them as a client. Whether it was them directly paying me kind of part-time while I had a new full-time job to work for them, or other employees that were at those companies that I worked at, they would make introductions for me to their friends and their families for clients that they thought it’d be a great fit for.
As I went from one job to another job, I kind of picked up a client as I left just by leaving kind of on great terms. Over the course of a few years, I had enough clients where it made a lot more sense for me to be full-time for myself versus full-time kind of in house or someone else. I guess you could kind of say like it all happened pretty organically where it just made a lot of sense and I really loved what I was doing, and kind of having that freedom and flexibility to build my own dream was what I always wanted to do.
Nathan: Yeah. Amazing. Tell me about your agency and the clients you work with. You specialise in e-comm, right?
Chase: Yep. We do specifically email marketing for e-commerce brands. Historically, we’ve worked with media and SAS, but e-commerce really is where we specialise. Today we work with about 30 different clients and we launched about a year-and-a-half ago. We’ve done about $20 million in email attributable revenue over the past year-and-a-half. The brands that we work with range from about six figures to kind of eight figures in annual revenue, and email typically accounts for about 20 to 30% of that total revenue.
Nathan: Interesting. Just off the bat, we asked you to teach a module of a new course that we’re launching called E-commerce Masters. We were introduced by Greta, and you have done some work with Greta and she said yeah, Chase is the go-to when it comes to email marketing, especially for e-comm. You guys have got to shoot that module with him because it’s a core driver for building a successful e-commerce business.
Now, I don’t know that much around e-comm, but I know a little bit because my girlfriend runs a water bottle company, which I helped her start and helped her grow it. I’m going to ask questions where I’m asking on behalf of her in the sense that her business is doing okay. It’s in the model six-figures, wanting to get to seven. When it comes to email, if you’re in that position, you should be aiming to have at least 20 to 30% of your revenue from email.
Chase: Absolutely. Yeah. That’s the average and the kind of the norm. That being said, we do have a lot of clients that are hitting 35, 40, even some clients are doing 50%, so I think 20 to 30% is kind of the first goal, and that’s really where you should strive to be. I would say most clients that we’d start with kind of around like the five, 10, maybe if they’re lucky, kind of 15% range. It’s just because they haven’t dedicated themselves to email.
Email is one of those things that’s kind of forgotten about. It’s not a sexiest paid acquisition. Not as many people want to invest into it like they didn’t want to invest into influencer marketing. I think it’s something that just gets forgotten about. That’s really kind of why and how we came to exist is we love email, we’re great at email, and we just saw companies were not investing into it because either A, they didn’t know how, or B, they didn’t know the value. That’s kind of why and where we jumped in.
Nathan: Yeah. Look, it’s funny, people talk about Messenger bots, all these other things, we haven’t really touched that that much and Foundr, we have seen some early success. But for us still email day in day out is insanely powerful. Yeah, I agree with you. It is something that is often forgot about, but I believe is such a strong lever to pull, even if you don’t have an e-commerce business, any kind of business.
I’m excited, I’m so excited the course is almost ready. I can’t wait to get my girlfriend to go through all the different modules in the course, but in particular your one, because I know there’s just so many plug and play templates you give and all this crazy stuff. Talk me through the process. If you’ve got a client that you know comes to you, they’re doing multiple six figures, what do you need to do? What’s the first step? Break down the campaigns for me, man. What are the key kind of campaigns that are the lowest hanging fruit to start with?
Chase: Yeah, so there’s two buckets that I want to dive into. One is campaigns, and just to clarify on campaigns, those are like the manual kind of broadcast that we send. Right? Whether it was Black Friday or Cyber Monday, those are kind of the campaigns that we put together.
Then, on the other end of what I want to talk about is what we call flows or email automation. Those are all based off of a trigger or an action that someone takes. If someone answers their email into a pop up on your website, that will then trigger a welcome series. Right? Someone should receive four or five emails over the course of the first week and a half or two weeks. If someone’s on your list and they add something to their cart and then they leave before starting their checkout, that will then fire an abandoned cart.
Those two kind of buckets are really where we focus a lot of time and attention. To talk about the first campaigns, for most clients we’re sending weekly, if not even sometimes two or three times a week. The contents that we’re covering there is everything from new product launches to special offers, holidays, partnerships, anytime they’ve been featured in a press outlet, different types of content. Right?
For example, we work with a men’s kind of beard care company and we sent a lot of content around like how to care for your beard, how to grow your beard. Really making sure that your storytelling as well as selling and kind of mixing it up. That’s kind of the campaign side.
The way that you figure out how often you should or shouldn’t be sending is you want to send a enough that way you’re not leaving money on the table, but you don’t want to send too much that people are marking as spam, they’re unsubscribing and you’re getting customer complaints about sending too much email. The only way that you can know is by starting with one email a week and then trying two emails a week, then try and three emails a week and try to find that equilibrium between enough revenue and not causing kind of chaos with your audience.
Nathan: Yeah. How do you know if you’re causing chaos with your audience?
Chase: The best way that you know is regardless of the system that you’re using, you’ll be able to see open rates, click-through rates, marked as spam, and unsubscribe and on top of those, just kind of monitoring customer complaints via email or however they’re reaching out. You have to look at those numbers, right? If your unsubscribe rate is increasing, if your mark as spam rate is increasing, and if your number of emails coming in saying, “Hey, you’re sending me way too much,” is increasing, then you know you need to tone it back.
Nathan: Interesting. What are your thoughts on a daily email? Like if you, let’s just say the company that Emily runs is called Healthish. If she started just doing the Healthish Daily and it’s a water bottle and it’s tips on living a healthy lifestyle and keeping hydrated, et cetera, et cetera. Dailies too much in this instance?
Chase: In most of the brands that we work with and including that one, I think daily is a little bit excessive. That that being said, what I would recommend is if someone wants to send daily, I would start what we call kind of a preferences section where people can basically say to you, “Hey, I want to receive emails daily. I want to receive emails weekly. I want to receive emails monthly.” That way if you do want to send daily, you’re most likely just hitting the people that have opted in to receive that kind of constant messaging. Because for most people, I think that would drive them nuts.
That being said, we do have some businesses. Right? If they’re a recipe company that sells ingredients and people want a daily recipe, I think things like that are okay. I think content emails and certain things are okay, but for most e-commerce brands to be able to send a daily email and not have every email be about selling is pretty hard.
Nathan: But what about Amazon, man? How do they get away with that?
Chase: Yeah, I think Amazon, probably a rare example, right? Where people just purchased their all different kinds of options. They have everything under the sun. Right? Where I think with a water bottle company, there’s only so many emails that you can receive from them. But I think to your point, Amazon’s probably the exception.
Nathan: Yeah. Okay. Awesome. All right, so you need to establish frequency and then you need to establish, is it your content calendar for the whole year on special promotions?
Chase: Typically, we’re looking at it on a monthly basis. Since so many things are changing, it almost feels like every day. But on a weekly basis, things are changing. We prefer to look at things at a monthly basis. At the beginning of every month we’ll sit with the client and say, here are the big things that I think we should run through.
For example, November, which we just got through, that was obviously the exception with people sending daily emails cause of Black Friday coming early. It’s Black Friday reminder, it’s actually Black Friday, it’s Cyber Monday. We’ll kind of work with the client and say these are the must have emails that we think you need and then work with us and tell us what product launches do you have. Are you partnering with any celebrities or influencers? Do you guys have any new blog posts? We work with them and we kind of structure out about two campaigns a week. Then if we feel like we could add more, we’ll kind of fill in those gaps.
Nathan: Yeah. Interesting. When it came to Black Friday, let’s talk about that particular campaign. One thing I noticed this year, and it depends when you’re listening to this, were referencing in 2019, there was a lot of people starting early, like in the first, at least a week before Black Friday, Cyber Monday even started. It was crazy. Do you believe you should start earlier or what?
Chase: Yeah, I really do believe you have to start earlier. On an actual Black Friday and Cyber Monday, your inboxes are so flooded that if you start early and you end late, that’s when there’s less noise. Right? With almost every single one of our clients, we did launch a week early. We launched right around that Monday or the Tuesday of the Black Friday week and we kept it going to that Tuesday or Wednesday right after Cyber Monday. It went pretty much from four or five days early to two or three days after Cyber Monday.
I want to say a lot of our revenue actually came prior to Black Friday. Once you kind of get to Black Friday and Cyber Monday, it’s really a hit or miss. If everyone else is sending campaigns and emails and people have spent their money ahead of time, it’s tough. I was all for and we went really hard in advance.
Nathan: Yeah. Interesting. You actually saw that across the board, earlier was better?
Chase: Yeah. Earlier was a lot better. Even if you wanted to go early, not with sales, going early with a heads up of what’s coming for Black Friday and Cyber Monday would work. With some clients, they felt uncomfortable and were a little bit wary sending deals for so many days that they basically just said to us, “Hey, you could send emails a few days in advance, but we want to just focus on setting the expectation of what’s to come.” That’s another way to go around it, and both those worked pretty well.
Nathan: Interesting. What other campaigns should people be thinking about if you do it on a month-to-month basis?
Chase: Yeah. On a month-to-month basis, again, the big ones and hopefully there’s relevance, hope we’re not just sending a holiday email to send a holiday email, but typically, that’s the one that we look at. That’s pretty low hanging fruit. People that know that emails are likely coming on those days, so there’s kind of that expectation and kind of that permission, for lack of a better word.
Again, other emails would be things like if you have a really great blog post on you know how to take care of your water bottle or you know why you should be drinking more water. Right? What’s the benefits of being hydrated verse hydrated, in the case of your girlfriend’s business?
Content emails is huge. A lot of companies are sending giveaway emails, so they’re partnering either with other brands or they’re running their own giveaway where someone can win a $100 gift card to their store. They could win a host of different prizes and packages from them and six other brands. Again, a lot of times people are launching new products.
This time of year we’ll send a gifting email. With Christmas coming up, we’ll send people an email saying, “Hey, we know Black Friday and Cyber Monday, you probably purchased a lot for yourself. Now’s the time to start focusing on your mom, your dad, your boyfriend, your girlfriend.” We’ll also do things like that.
Nathan: So smart.
Nathan: Yeah. Got you. Interesting. Sorry I interrupted you.
Chase: No worries. Then a few other emails that we’re doing, so like a gifting email’s a really big one for the Christmas time. Another really big one that we’re doing across all of our clients is in related to gifting, was basically, here’s the last day that you have to order your product by to make sure it is guaranteed delivering for Christmas. The gifting guide and kind of the last delivery dates have been big ones where you’re kind of stressing that urgency. You’re basically saying to people, if you don’t ship today, if you don’t order it today, you’re not going to receive it in time. People are making more purchases because of that. That’s another big one, at least for this time that we’re working on.
Then, if you use countdown timers, when you’re using a calendar that shows the dates, that’s kind of like a GIF and things are moving. We’re making these really kind of fun and interactive and stand out.
Nathan: Yeah, wow. That’s so smart. Sorry I interrupted you before. I love that gifting idea. Very, very smart. Just relevancy, I think that’s a key thing. Right? With all of these campaigns, why is it relevant?
Chase: Exactly. Everyone sends the right email at the right time to the right person. The only other thing I would add to that is also the right design. That’s something that we really were focused on in 2019 that I think really set us apart and really led to a lot of our client retention was just the design element. Right? It’s one thing to hit the person at the right time with the right content in the right email, but also having the right design. I think that was a really big thing for 2019 that allowed us to send more emails because the customers really liked receiving them. They were really interactive, they were really engaging. I think that’s one thing I would add.
Nathan: Yeah. Talk to me about the right design. What are the key elements people need there?
Chase: I believe email is just an extension of your website as is social. You really do need to have kind of a cohesive and coherent plan and identity and brand. Your website shouldn’t look great and your emails should look kind of poor. Everything needs to look kind of top-notch.
I think Greta is a great example, right? Everything she does and she touches looks amazing. Right? That’s so important to communicating trust with your audience. I think for one, if a company has a really great website modelling the email so that they’re similar enough, but not the exact same is really key.
If their emails and their websites aren’t great, what we basically do is we say to them, give us three brands that are kind of your aspirational brands. Some people say, Casper, right? Some people say Away, some people say Movement, and we’ll basically kind of take those two or three different brands that people love, and we’ll try to make them as similar as we can to their own brands. That way it’s different from movement. It’s different from Casper, but it’s similar to the brand, like keeping those styles in mind. So that’s kind of the process that we go through is identifying people’s ideal brands and finding a way to tie that into what they’re currently doing.
Nathan: Yeah, that’s, that’s so cool. I love it. So for e-comm, no plain text?
Chase: There actually is a time and a place what plain text, but seldomly. For example, one of the email automations that we send is what’s called the sunset unengaged subscribers. That’s basically a fancy way for saying it’s a breakup series. If someone’s been on your list for four or five months and they haven’t opened, they haven’t clicked, they haven’t purchased, they’re actually hurting you more than they’re helping you. They’re adding no value and they’re actually subtracting value by being someone that is not engaging.
What we’ll actually do in that case is we’ll split test and by split test, I just mean we’ll have a version A and version B. One version will be a plain text email that’s coming from the founder. Nathan, if Foundr was doing this breakup series, it would say, “From Nathan, Hey Chase, it looks like you haven’t engaged with us since quite a while. That’s probably our bad. Maybe you have different expectations or maybe you’re just busy. If you want to keep hearing from us, click here to stay subscribed, and if not, we’ll stop sending you emails.” That’s a really great use case to send a plain text email. That being said, we always do test it with kind of a branded version just to see which one performs better.
Nathan: Which usually does?
Chase: It really is kind of a toss up. Right? The plain text version feels very personal. That being said, over the years people have gotten a lot smarter. Consumers have gotten a lot smarter to knowing that that actually is an automated email. I want to say two or three years ago when we first started sending these types of emails, they performed a lot better than kind of the pretty looking HTML, and now it’s kind of a toss up.
Depending on the brand, depending on their branding, depending on how often they communicate with people, how involved the founder is or isn’t, there’s so many different variables that will cause it to sway towards one or the other.
For you Nathan, you’re very centre at the whole Foundr brand. If an email came from you that was plain text, that would feel probably pretty personal. Whereas, if someone else on your team sends an email that was plain text that was kind of behind the scenes, that might not do as well as a really nice looking email because they don’t know who that person is.
Nathan: Interesting. Okay. Talk to me around list building. When you’re working on these campaigns full of different clients you’re working with, should I assume that you’re only speaking with customers that have previously bought? A lot of like e-commerce companies don’t tend to really do list building that much. Right?
Chase: To some degree that’s true, and to some degree that’s a little bit different. List building for e-commerce typically revolves around people driving traffic to the site and us leveraging pop-ups, fly outs, embedded subscription forms to collect emails onto that traffic. That’s one really big way that we kind of build a list, right, is we capitalise on the traffic already hitting the site and we get them to engage with these forums.
In addition to that, we do do a lot of kind of ambassador programmes and referral marketing with the subscribers where we’re incentivizing them to share with their friends. It’s kind of the whole give to get model. Nathan, for your girlfriend’s company, you could send me a discount code that says, “Hey, Chase, here’s 10% off on this store.” By you telling me about your experience there and maybe you send me a picture or you just show me that you’ve been a customer there. That kind of is like, all right, maybe I’m in the market for a bottle, and then I have a 10% off discount code, I’m more inclined to purchase. It’s kind of the whole word of mouth referrals that help drive e-commerce sales. I think those are kind of two big ones.
Another big one, this one’s kind of a hit or miss depending on the average price point of your products, the more expensive your products, the less successful this is. Doing things like giveaways, whether you’re running your own giveaway or you’re partnering with another brand, those can be successful, it just depends.
Those typically, are the things. Again, it’s leveraging email forms to collect the subscriber info. It’s doing referral marketing, and it’s running giveaways. Those are typically the three ways that we at least have control over acquiring more leads.
Nathan: Yeah, I see. Generally, when you’re working with clients, are you speaking to people differently if they haven’t bought, versus they have?
Chase: Yes and no. In campaigns, it really just depends on what we’re sending. If it’s a Black Friday sale, we’re sending that same messaging to every single person, but then on the automation side, kind of a first time subscriber will receive a different welcome series than kind of someone that’s purchased.
On the automation side, there’s definitely a lot of speaking to people depending on where they are in their kind of lifestyle and their kind of customer journey. Even kind of on the post-purchase side, we’ll send a customer thank you, one that’s for a first time buyer and then another that’s for a repeat buyer. The first time buyer is really kind of just expressing who we are and why this means so much to us and really saying thank you. Then, the repeat buyers pretty much saying those same things but not explaining everything from the start. Right? Because they’ve already gotten that first message. We’re definitely doing a combination of the two. It’s just very situational.
Nathan: Yeah. Interesting. Love to switch gears and talk about kind of automations and flows. Before we jump in, though, if you’ve got an e-comm business, you recommend Klaviyo, right? Or Klaviyo.
Chase: I don’t know how to say it either, Klaviyo, Klaviyo. I kind of switch it up. But for me personally, that’s my favourite. We’re working with about 30 clients right now and every single one was already on Klaviyo or we migrated them from another platform to Klaviyo. So yeah, I do personally recommend it.
Nathan: Yep. Yeah, look, that seems to be the go-to now. They come around pretty fast. Everyone was on Mailchimp, now everyone seems to be on Klaviyo. It seems only the past couple of years people have really in e-comm moved to that, which is interesting.
Talk to me. I know you go through all the different flows and you’ve give all the plug and play templates and everything in the module for the E-commerce Masters course, with and Chase and all these other incredible founders on mastering the particular topic. But let’s talk about a few flows that people need to have in their business. Maybe start with the abandoned cart. Is that probably one of the first low hanging fruit?
Chase: Yeah, there’s about nine or 10, or even more actually that we’ll be going through in that course, which I’m excited about, but I think there’s three absolutely core ones that you have to start with. In no particular order, it’s the welcome series for a first time subscribers. Basically, people are entering their email to pop-up and they’re expecting to receive a discount and they’re expecting to receive information about who you are.
Again, that’s typically four or five emails over the course of the first week-and-a-half or two weeks that goes through who you are, why you matter, how you’re different. Maybe some best sellers, leveraging some social proof. If you have tonnes of customer reviews that are five stars, throw that in there. If you’ve been featured on tonnes of press outlets, throw that in there. Anything that you could do, the better, right? If you have a really strong social following, throw that in there because again, everyone has come to your website from a different source, so the more that you can get everyone up to speed and give everyone the same info, that’s going to set up everything else you do later. The welcome series is one of the three kinds of must have flows I think you have to do.
The next one, like you mentioned, is the abandoned cart. Everyone calls it the abandoned cart, I actually call it the abandoned checkout, and I’ll kind of explain the difference between the abandoned cart and the abandoned checkout in one minute. The abandoned checkout is a flow that you must have, right? These are people that are furthest down the funnel and most likely to convert, and the reason that they’re not converting could be things like they’re just waiting because they want a discount email, maybe that they didn’t get free shipping, maybe they got busy and they got distracted. Right? There’s tonne of different things that happen, but the reason that people made it that far is because there’s some level of interest and intent. By having these abandoned checkout emails, you’re likely to recover a lot of revenue.
I would recommend for sure at least starting with two or three different emails. Email one typically is sent after a couple hours. Anywhere from like an hour to four hours later. Email two and three are only sent to people if they have not placed an order after that first email. Email two you typically kind of send a reminder and a follow up about a day later. Again, if someone purchases after that email, you’re not going to send them the third email. The abandoned checkouts a big one.
Kind of to differentiate between the two, speaking about Klaviyo in particular, by default they allow you to do an abandoned checkout email. If you connect your Shopify store or whatever site you’re on, the abandoned cart, you actually have to add a snippet of code to your website that will then enable it. Basically, abandoned to cart is taking the metric of someone adds something to their cart, but they do not start a checkout. If they start a checkout, they will get skipped from the abandoned cart and instead receive the abandoned checkout. Right? Because you want to prioritise the emails where people are most engaged. Does that make sense?
Nathan: Yeah, 100%.
Chase: Cool. Then, the last email that you have to have, and again, obviously, there’s tonnes of others, but just to kind of keep it concise is the customer thank you. I strongly believe that if someone purchases from you, you have to say thank you. You have to show them that you genuinely appreciate it and it means a lot to you. That will help increase repeat purchase. That will help increase word of mouth. That will reduce buyer remorse. A customer thank you.
Typically, again, I mentioned this before, we split it by a first time buyer verse a repeat buyer. I think those are the three flows that you absolutely have to have, and then there’s tonnes of others.
Nathan: Yeah, I’d love to talk about this customer thank you one because that’s really interesting. Someone buys the water bottle, what do you say?
Chase: Again, to your question earlier about plain text, this is another great use case of where you can use plain text. Again, I always recommend AB testing, as I mentioned, versus a version that looks really nice, but this is a really great chance for you as a founder or you as a founding team or you as a company to really just reach out and say thank you.
Nathan, if you bought from the water bottle company a day after your purchase, because the first day, Shopify or whatever platform you’re using is going to automatically send out an order confirmation. We don’t want to send them too many emails all at once.
Typically, we trigger a customer thank you one day after someone purchases and we just say, “Hey, Nathan. First off, wanted to thank you so much for your purchase from us yesterday. It means a lot to us,” and if there’s any really kind of strong mission or impact, right? If your girlfriend built that business and she donates a portion of her proceeds to some charity or some foundation, that’s a really important thing to talk about. Or again, maybe you give a couple of tips in the email of how people can use the product and how they can stay more hydrated.
The key is really around thanking people and you can kind of keep it short and sweet. One thing we always do in the plain text version is we just add in like a signature of the founder. That’s typically just like an image that we create that we throw in at the bottom is just the signature. Nathan Chan, would have your nice signature at the bottom. It kind of just looks professional and it also feels important.
Nathan: Yeah. Do you use that opportunity to sell more product?
Chase: In that particular email, in the customer thank you, we really just want to be altruistic and genuine about life. “This means the world to us. Thank you so much.” Sometimes we’ll ask them to follow us on social in that email, but that’s the one email post-purchase that we typically don’t try to sell. We do have follow-up emails where if someone has a product that’s kind of confusing or complicated or needs additional info, after that thank you, we’ll say, “Here’s how you use our product.”
For example, we’re working with a lot of CBD brands, so in the next email after we’ll say, “Hey, while your product’s shipping, here’s how we recommend you use these CBD products. We recommend you take it every single morning, add it to your coffee, underneath your tongue. This should last you about three weeks.” That email really is setting up kind of a replenishment email, which allows us to sell people a consumable product that they’ll go through every couple of weeks or every couple months. I think that email is important, and in that email, it makes more sense to start selling it.
Nathan: I see. You have seen really positive results if you send a thank you email to people and then add them to a flow, versus not sending a thank you email and then adding them to a flow. You’ve seen positive results generally that it just builds a stronger relationship with the customer, and in turn it’s a positive higher ROI or increases LTV, effectively.
Chase: Yeah, that’s correct. That email, those customer thank you emails, the open rates are 40, 50, 60, sometimes even 70%. Right? They’re very high opened and inherently people are expecting a tonne of information about when they’re going to get their product. Those few kind of days after someone purchases, you have their attention the most. To be able to kind of be in their brain and then remember subconsciously or consciously later that you were really thankful and appreciative goes a long way.
Obviously, the product has to deliver all the things you promised. The product has to be superior or good enough. But yeah, a great product plus being very thankful has really led to strong repeat purchase.
Nathan: Interesting. When it comes to opens and clicks, what are you a happy with? Because I know that’s a big thing that has made, obviously, many chat, a very, very big business and this Facebook Messenger bot stuff the new hot thing. What is acceptable to you?
Chase: Yeah. This obviously sways a little bit different by the brand and by the industry. In the course, there’s a basically a sheet that I provide that shows you kind of the different ranges. Right? If you’re under 10% open rate, you’re probably in trouble. Right? There might be a deliverability issue. Maybe you’re just batching and blasting and sending to everyone versus just people that are engaged.
Typically, to answer that question about how to generalise it, north of about 20% open rates, we’re pretty happy with. Again, obviously, 30, 40% is great and some of our clients are consistently hitting 30, 40, 50% open rate on tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of sends, but if I had a generalised kind of the average across our 30 clients, I would say most people probably are in the ballpark of about a 20 to 25% open rate.
Nathan: Yeah, I see. Do you think it matters or differs the bigger the amount of customers or bigger the amount of people on that email list, versus if you have, for example, 50,000 people that you are on your customer email list or just email list in general, versus 500,000, typically, is always the outlaw of averages, is the email open rate going to be the same?
Chase: If we’re comparing apples to apples and the two companies are basically sending to their engaged folks, I don’t know that the list size actually has a huge impact on it. For example, if kind of the most aggressive engaged audience that we’d send to is kind of a 30-day engage, so if people have opened in the last 30 days, if people have placed an order in the last 30 days, or people have joined our list kind of in the past two weeks, if we hit that audience, whether it’s 50,000 or 500,000, within kind of give or take a few percentage points, we should see that perform the same.
The problem gets to be when people are sending the 50,000 versus 500,000 and they’re not doing kind of any less segmentation, if they’re just sending to everyone, typically, the smaller list sending to everyone will open a little bit better than sending kind of to the larger list just sending to everyone and again, just based off of the volume, right? If you’re sending 500,000 emails and you’re not doing any kind of list segmentation and following best practises, that’s probably going to set off a little bit more trip wires than I would if you’re sending a smaller amount.
Again, we’re so focused on sending it to engage folks, typically 30 days or 60 days is preferred. If the list is super engaged, we’ll kind of expand that out to 90 days, and that’s really the best practise. That will help you have a really healthy list and really strong deliverability.
Nathan: Interesting. And clicks, what are your expectations, standards? What are you looking for?
Chase: Yeah. Clicks will vary from the content. This was an email we sent yesterday for one of the beard care companies it was sent to. One of their blog posts that was sent out yesterday, I think it had a 25% open rate and like a three-and-a-half or a 4% click-through, whereas an email we set on Black Friday had like an 18% open rate and like a 2% click-through. Right? I think the right content that’s really engaging should have a really good deal, a really good click-through, or a really good deal will drive a really great click-through. But most people, I think on the click-through side, probably realistically around like half a percent to 1.5%. If we could get a couple points, if we could get three to 5% click-throughs, I think that’s pretty successful.
Nathan: Okay, awesome. What about, I guess when it comes to flows, how many flows or automation campaigns do you put on the back of each other? If somebody’s in a flow, do you still send them a campaign? For example, let’s just say somebody becomes a customer before Black Friday, like a couple of weeks, is it okay if they have multiple back on back campaign, multiple back on back flows and then hit the Black Friday campaign? Yeah, because that’s something that people can fall into.
Chase: Absolutely. One thing I thought of that I wanted to mention a quickly before I answer that question is the open rates for flows and campaigns are obviously going to differ, too. Typically, for flows you’re seeing a higher open rate because again, it’s based off of the trigger and action. If someone gets an abandoned cart email, they’re probably going to open that email twice as much as they would just some random campaign that they didn’t really request. Right?
Because again, like the way that I explained it is a campaign is us telling our audience that they need to know about this, whereas a flow is our audience telling us that they need to receive this email. That’s kind of the differentiation and kind of a layman’s term how explain it to clients. Obviously, there are some holes that you could poke in both those, but typically flow emails we’re seeing performing twice as well as campaigns, just based off of it being so relevant.
Then, to answer the question that you asked, and then the question again was if someone’s in a few flows of their post-purchase and they’re receiving emails here, do you or do you not send them a campaign email? And the answer is it depends. Typically, one of the filters that we have in our segments for sending a campaign is that someone has not ordered in the past five days or seven days depending on the company and the products. We’re kind of ruling out people that have purchased most recently, so that way, say we sent a sale email today and someone bought something full price three or five days ago, we don’t want them to then return or cancel their order and then try to get the same thing with a 20% discount code because that’s a sale that they got.
Typically, we’re excluding the most recent buyers from the campaigns. Then, also in Klaviyo they have this thing which is called smart sending, and it’s a filter that you can turn on to the flow emails as well as the campaign emails that will prohibit people from receiving an email over whatever window of time that they last received it. By default, Klaviyo I think sets it out 16 hours, but you can kind of change it from 16 hours to 24 hours or whatever else you want to do. I probably wouldn’t do it any further than 24 hours, but let’s use 24 hours as the example.
Say Nathan, you purchased from the water bottle company today and you got an email. If we were extending a campaign today as well, and we had smart sending on, you would get skipped from the smart sending because you had recently received an email, and also you probably would’ve got skipped anyways because we would’ve had the filter on the flow saying has placed in order zero times over the last five days.
Nathan: Yeah, I see. Interesting. That’s really, really cool. One other thing I’d love to talk to you about is what else besides campaigns and flows to people need to be thinking about?
Chase: Yeah. That’s a great question. There’s a couple of really cool things that we’re leveraging on the email kind of pop-up or fly-out side that not a lot of customers have ever thought about or done. And I haven’t seen this happen with a whole lot of other companies. To give you an example, there’s multiple ways that you could do it.
For example, Nathan, you purchased from us today, I could show just the people that have purchased from us recently a pop-up on the site or a fly-out on the site. By the way, a pop-up is something, obviously, that pops up and kind of takes over part of the screen or all of the screen. I keep saying fly-out, but basically that’s something that kind of just sneaks out from like a side. It’s very non-intrusive and it shows you a message. Right? I’m sure everyone’s seen those, too, but I kind of wanted to clarify that.
One thing that you could do is for people that have just purchased, you could show them a pop-up or a fly-out on the site that just says, “Hey, thank you so much for your recent purchase.” Right? You could use pop-ups and forms on your site to communicate messages or let people know about sales that are in different segments.
With a pop-up, for example, on your website, typically, we’re just showing that to people that have not been on your list and are new kind of visitors, and we want them to obviously to enter our site. We’re also now starting to use pop-ups and fly-outs for customers for different things.
Klaviyo has this thing called predictive analytics where they think they know when someone’s going to purchase next. We just started creating these forms that basically show to people in this bucket and we start sending them discounts. Nathan, you go on the water bottle site, Klaviyo says that you’re most likely about to purchase again in the next two weeks based off their algorithm. We’re going to show you something the next time you come on the website that says, “Hey Nathan, we have a special offer for you. Use this code at checkout for 15% off.”
Again, it’s not an email, it’s not a push notification, it’s not an SMS, but it’s kind of just a way for us to communicate directly with new content to people already on our list that are visiting our website. Does that make sense?
Nathan: Yeah. It’s like remarketing in a way, but with just email.
Chase: Yes, exactly. You’re leveraging the people that are visiting your site with forms outside just the traditional pop-up for a first time subscriber. We’re basically having many billboards on the site where we’re communicating to all these different audiences about things going on.
Nathan: Yeah. Wow. That’s next level.
Chase: That’s probably one of the things I’m most excited about. One of the brands we work with is called theCHIVE, and they have this e-commerce business, which is an eight figure business called the Chivery. Today, we basically just set up this form that gives people 15% off. That’s in that segment. I think that segment had like 15 or 20,000 people that Klaviyo predicts is most likely going to purchase over the next two weeks. We got that live today. It’s a 15% off discount code that only those people are going to see.
Then, another way that we’re using that is kind of like a welcome back type thing. Inherently, in every list there’s a churn, right? I think I read a stat once that 20 or 25% of your list every year churns. What we’re basically doing is we’re taking this people that have churned and we are trying to get them through Facebook ads and targeting them kind of as a segment to come to the website and showing them specific offers and ads to get them to kind of re-opt in to our website, and then we’re triggering a specific kind of welcome back email flow for that type of thing. There’s a lot of really cool use cases that we’ve been exploring over the past few months.
Nathan: Yeah. Wow. That’s really, really next level. Yeah, we use Marrow. I wonder if we can do that for Foundr. That’s next level.
Chase: Yeah. I’m happy to chat with you offline to see if we could kind of come up with some strategies for you there.
Nathan: Yeah, yeah, that’s next level. That’s crazy. Well, look dude, I could talk to you all day. This has been like such a valuable conversation. Couple last questions or work towards wrapping up. What can people expect from your module of this course, the E-commerce Masters course that you taught the email marketing component?
Chase: In that course or that module, we go pretty heavily into email automation. There’s almost a dozen or if not more email flows that we walked through. Everything from pre-purchase. The welcome series, the browse abandonment, the abandoned cart, the abandoned checkout. Two of those flows are things that are kind of custom, the browse abandonment and the abandoned cart. We’re actually going to show you and walk you through how you can add those.
Those are flows at almost every single client does not have because they don’t know about them or they do not know how to set them up, so we’re walking through that as well as a whole host of kind of post-purchase flows. So the customer, thank you, the customer win back, the cross sell, the upsell, the sunset unengaged, all those different types of things.
We went pretty heavy on the flows and then there’s a couple of growth hacks actually in there that I think people are really going to enjoy. One of them, I don’t want to give them all away, but one of them is basically you can create unique tracking links within Klaviyo that allow you to survey your customers without them actually even knowing.
For example, we work with a company that sells supplements for pets. In emails we’re always asking people like, how old is your dog? And we’re kind of having them click a range. Zero to two, kind of the puppy phase. Three to eight, they’re kind of in their midlife. Nine and older. They’re kind of in the elders stage. And just by people clicking on these links, we’re then able to drop them into specific flows, recommending products depending upon the lifestyle and kind of the age of their pet.
An older dog, we’re going to send them a flow that has things around joint support and kind of like immune boosters. That’s kind of a really cool thing I’m excited about that we’ve been doing with a lot of our clients and driving a lot of revenue because the emails are so timely and so relevant.
Nathan: Yeah. Wow. That’s next level. Man, like I said, I can’t wait to get my partner to go through ……… next level. It’s going to add, yeah, a lot of growth. That’s exciting.
Chase: Thank you. I’m excited about it as well.
Nathan: Yeah, no man. You really know your stuff. Dude, where’s the best place people can find out more about and your work?
Chase: The two places would be in my personal Instagram. It’s Chase Hunter Dimond, no “A” in Dimond. It’s just D-I-M-O-N-D. Then, my agency website is boundlesslabs.io, so boundlesslabs.io.
Nathan: Amazing. Well, look dude, thank you so much for your time. Like I said, we have to wrap, but man, I could talk to your day around this email stuff, so yeah, thank you so much for your time and yeah, just yeah, wanting to work with us on this, think yeah, five module course on e-commerce and taking e-commerce business to the next level. Yah, I really appreciate it, man. The guys at Foundr are so pumped on putting this together and yeah, it’s been an honour.
Chase: Yeah, and thank you guys as well. Nathan, I told you this before the call, but your team is world-class, so really appreciate all their kindness and care and expertise. So, thank you.
Nathan: You’re welcome.