Christene Barberich & Piera Gelardi, Co-founders, Refinery29
“I think about how little we knew, but how—I believe—how courageous we were,” says Christene Barberich, reflecting on the early days of Refinery29.
Before she and co-founder Piera Gelardi were the women at the helm of one of the fastest-growing digital media companies in the world, they were new entrepreneurs working tirelessly on a vision (first sketched on a napkin) that outsiders failed to understand.
The Refinery29 founding team formed in 2004, and in those early days (before Twitter had even launched), people struggled to grasp even the concept of digital media. The co-founders’ pitches were met with skepticism.
“We would go talk to people, and they would act like we were trying to sell them a carpet or something,” Gelardi says. “They thought it was a scam.”
Potential advertisers and brand partners also didn’t think customers would ever want to buy something online. “I just remember thinking, like, ‘I don’t think that’s true,’” Barberich says.
That skepticism gave them an advantage, though: It gave Refinery29 the freedom to operate and experiment without the pressure of competition.
Today, Refinery29 has an international audience of 550 million and has earned multiple distinctions, including Webby awards and Inc. 500 list mentions.
- How the two met and influenced each other’s decision to go all in on Refinery29
- The early days at Refinery29 when wireframes were hand-drawn
- The freedom of operating under the radar when digital media was still the Wild West
- The critics who doubted the business model and thought it was a scam
- What they lose sleep over
- How they approach content creation
- What they look for when hiring
- The advice they would give to entrepreneurs who want to use content to grow their businesses
- How they define quality content
Full Transcript of Podcast with Christene Barberich and Piera Gelardi
Nathan: The first question I ask everyone that comes on is, how did you get your job? We’ll start with you Christene.
Christene: Starting the company? Starting Refinery29?
Nathan: Yeah. How’d you find yourself doing the work you’re doing today?
Christene: Well I can thank this lovely human sitting beside me for that. Yeah. Piera was dating Philippe von Borries, who’s one of our co-founders and also one of the co-CEOs of our company. She and I had previously worked together at another startup, a magazine that no longer exists but that was incredibly beloved. It was a design and fashion publication called City.
Piera started out there as an intern. I was the editor of the magazine. We worked together for four and a half years I think. She was still at college. It was my first foray outside of corporate publishing and corporate media.
I think the two of us really learned to be independent thinkers there and to be creative thinkers in a much more liberated space then I’d ever experienced before. Just in a professional environment.
Fast forward, Piera was with Philippe. Philippe, and Justin, and another friend of theirs were in the very, very beginning stages of developing this concept for a digital media company that would really cater to independent fashion brands. I was, I guess, pretty versed in working among fashion content and fashion brands. Piera asked me if I would be interested in consulting for them and just giving them some advice from a woman’s perspective.
I remember meeting them. I’ve told this story a few times but it was such a profound feeling for me it’s really worth repeating, especially in a setting like this. Is when I met with them and they told me about what they wanted to do, you have to really think about the time that this took place. This was early millennia, I guess. It was 2004 when we all met as a team, I guess, as a group. This is before Twitter. This is before so much of what we see as the internet today and how we use it. The different kinds of companies that we engage with on a daily basis. This was really the great unknown in a very literal meaning.
I just remember feeling, when they were telling me about the concept … I told her later, I said, “I don’t think I want to consult. I think I want to be a partner. I think I want to really have a much more meaningful role in starting up this business.”
I could already see that traditional publishing was changing at that time. That magazines were starting to … They were starting to recede, in terms of their importance and the role that they were playing in brands businesses. Also there was such a limited way of communicating with audience there. It was a very one way conversation. I was really … I felt limited and restricted myself. As an editor and writer wanting to connect more deeply with the people that I was creating content for.
When I called Piera up and I told her that I was thinking about doing this. I said, “Well what about you? Are you thinking about doing this?” Because she was already essentially consulting for them as well. I didn’t really have to twist your arm. You just were like, “Well if you do it I do and vice versa.” We decided to do it together.
Piera: Yeah. Meanwhile here I was. Really my first real job in college was at City Magazine where Christene was my mentor. She was my boss. She taught me so much about everything that I learned there. As Christene said, it was a really amazing environment to be in because it was very free and also a place where you could learn about so many different things. Because it was really open … Even though I actually wasn’t supposed to be working for Christene, I came in as a photo intern, I learned editing-
Christene: I stole her.
Piera: … I learned how to write headlines. Christene taught me a lot about creating content but I simultaneously was learning about photography, styling, how to add cell side work. It was a really great environment to really understand all parts of the content creation process but similar to Christene I was feeling antsy.
I felt a little bit bored with just the magazine cycle and just how stagnant it felt. There was a lot of room for creativity within it but it didn’t really feel like it was going somewhere new. At the time I had worked up to being the Photo Director at the magazine and Christene had left but we had stayed friends.
Yeah, I just slid into consulting with Philippe and Justin on this project that they were working on, that I thought was really exciting. I wasn’t really inspired by a lot of the emerging voices in fashion that we were covering. The fact that we were really focused on independent style. That it wasn’t about these rules of fashion, which neither Christene or I really ever adhered to or were interested in. I just liked that it was another creative pursuit. I love the entrepreneurial spirit of it but I wasn’t really thinking of it as a business endeavour and I wasn’t really thinking about my own interest.
I was just consulting for free without any set agreement. I told them they should talk to Christene. I thought that she would refer them to another former intern or assistant. It totally blew my mind when she called me and said that she wanted to get involved in a more official capacity. It really helped me to see the bigger vision. I was excited about it and I was working in it but because she wanted to sign up it showed me that bigger vision. Also really reminded me to think about my own value in the equation. To ask for the same and to become a partner like she was.
Yeah. Then we all joined. Now we have four co-founders and we’re building-
Christene: … together.
Piera: … together.
Nathan: Well the guys said they had a business plan on a napkin. Were you guys there at that meeting when they did the business plan?
Piera: That was when they were meeting with Christene.
Piera: I mean there was a lot of sketching. For a digital company we did a lot of things very hands on. I remember I used to draw all of our newsletter and homepage wire frames. Then give them to our designer. The first media kit I remember Justin, and I sitting, and sketching it out at a coffee shop. Apparently the lure is that they showed Christene the business plan on a napkin. There’s a lot of hand done work at the beginning.
Christene: Yes. It was also … There was something so … I think the handmade aspect of it was very much like the story of the beginnings of this company.
I mean, it was hard to find people to actually help us build things. We were actually essentially learning about developers. How to work with graphic designers in a digital medium. I think that when you look back at the first iteration of Refinery29, I mean it really deeply warms my heart because I think it’s still beautiful. I think it’s so beautiful. I think about the mindset that we all had, where it was such a … There wasn’t anything to compare our company and our brand to because there was so few properties that were doing what we were doing.
When you start out and you really are at the beginning of something, you have so much freedom to test things. I do credit that period, the first two years where we were essentially flying under the radar, as this really important testing ground for us to really see what felt like the right next move with each expansion that we made.
Piera: Yeah. That was such a nice period because it was like … It really felt like the wild, wild west. There was no roadmap for what we were doing. There wasn’t much competition. Most of the traditional publishers saw digital as a phase. A lot of the big brands saw digital as a phase, which is so laughable now but truly people … We would go talk to people and they would act like we were trying to sell them a carpet or something. They thought it was a scam.
As hard as that was at times, because it was hard to get people to take us seriously, it also allowed us so much freedom to explore, and develop, and experiment without having all of the pressure of competition. I think we were able to really pioneer this new space because it was an open road.
Christene: I think it’s also so important to really recognise the other founders, at that time, that were doing something in a digital medium. Someone like Natalie Massenet who was literally the first person to believe in e-commerce and that people would want to buy clothes online. I mean we had so many conversations with potential advertisers and brand partners. I still remember the companies, where they were and the fact that they said, “No. We don’t really think our customer’s ever going to want to buy things online. We don’t think that they’re going to want to buy something that they can’t try on.” I just remember thinking, “I don’t think that’s true. I actually don’t really think that’s true.”
Piera: I think you could be wrong.
Christene: But you have to really trust your gut because it didn’t exist yet. I mean, it’s not that long ago but in a lot of ways it’s a long time ago. So much has determined the direction of this world that we operate in now. I think about how little we knew but, I believe, how courageous we were and how confident that we believed this was really going to become everyone’s new normal.
Nathan: Yeah. Fast forward to now, you guys have an incredibly well known brand in the media space. You guys are one of the fastest growing media companies out there. Definitely leading the charge in this new digital media space where you can build a really sustainable business model.
You lead the creative and the content side of the business. I’d love to hear how has things changed from the content and the creative perspective? I know you guys have moved into many different verticals. You do these incredible events, which I’d love to talk to you about or 29Rooms but then also you guys … I love the Money Diary series. I’m not-
Christene: You and everyone else.
Nathan: I’m not … I don’t know if … I’m supposed to be a tight market in that aspect because you guys are producing content for millennial women. How has the content changed from the early days to where it is now, in terms of that voice?
Piera: Yeah. Just one clarification, we do produce content that’s focused on women but we think content that’s focused on women should be interesting to everyone. You absolutely are the audience for Money Diaries so enjoy it.
Nathan: Okay. It’s fascinating.
Christene: Also I think people universally appreciate ideas around money.
Christene: People don’t talk about it enough and I think that that’s one of the big reasons why the series is so successful.
How has the content changed? Well I mean, I think that the spirit and the ethos has really remained the same. I think that, from the early days, Christene and I collaborating so closely as a content, and creative team, and we both overlap so much there. We really were focused on experimentation and we were so invigorated by having access to the knowledge of our audience in real time.
When you work in a magazine you don’t get that. You might get some letters to the editor but you’re not getting the immediacy of feedback. Of seeing the numbers, seeing the comments, seeing how people are sharing content. That was something that we found creatively really inspiring to be able to see a success and then immediately build off of it or see what other ideas it sparked.
I think that that spirit of experimentation, that connection to the audience still really fuels us. As well as … Our desire has always been to elevate under represented voices, to really bring these new ideas to the surface, and challenge what is in the mainstream, and how the mainstream media speaks to and about women.
I think those things are all through lines but in the early days we were just focused on style. I remember the first time we did an experiment with doing a beauty newsletter. It felt like such a big departure for us and it ended up being our biggest success of that month so we kept building. That was how we broke into these new … All of these new verticals, was through these different experiments.
I remember Christene was really interested in wellness. We did a few experiments in testing out our audiences appetite for wellness and saw that was a big shift. I think it’s always also been about what’s under served.
When we were thinking about expanding it’s like … Sex content for women was so heteronormative. It was not focused on women’s pleasure or bodily autonomy. We wanted to … We saw that as a white space. It was seeking out the white space. Thinking about what was really resonating with us, with the people that worked with us and with our audience. Just always looking for that new territory.
It feels very organic when I think back to how we got from here to there but of course, probably from a further distance it seems like a complete departure. What do you think Christene?
Christene: I think … I mean, I agree with everything you said. The only other thing that I would add is that information, in this business, becomes both a blessing and a curse because we have all of this information, and data, and historical knowledge at our disposal to help guide us in making good choices, in terms of how we plan our content. But I think in some ways you lose that spontaneity. Where that was something I really, really loved. Having a weird idea, even like-
Yeah. Just having an idea to do something, and being able to pursue it, and not worry so much about what the outcome was going to be or worry that it was going to hit a certain traffic benchmark. I think those benchmarks are really important because they help to guide us and they help us to build on our success so we can really make sure that the team is using their time wisely. But I also never want to lose that-
Christene: That instinct and that desire that editors, and writers, and creative makers feel about just making something because they feel like they need to. That’s a challenge. It’s definitely a challenge when you have a company at this stage and growth. Certain stages of growth are really important to meet at certain times. I think that both Piera and I, we see our roles now, as we’ve evolved so much in the company, is to be an active reminder of that with our teams and anybody that touches events, or video, or flat content, or a newsletter even.
That’s really important to me because I think that that’s really what motivates people. Is when they feel like they’re making content that they deeply love but that’s also touching a person’s life. I think that at the end of the day that’s one of the big reasons that Piera and I wanted to do this. Is that we didn’t feel that the priorities of other businesses and publications were really aligned with our own.
With that comes an enormous responsibility. Knowing that we’re making this much content. What effect and impact is it having in the lives of our audience? I think all the time about the moment that we find ourselves in right now, following this new … A new wave of the women’s movement, and equal rights, and Me Too, and the fact that I think that Refinery29 was … We drafted this model for this very moment in time. We didn’t know it then.
We also have an enormous responsibility to be able to live up that legacy that I hope that we’ll have at some point. You can’t have a media company without having a really true understanding of what it is you want to leave behind some day.
Nathan: That legacy and that impact that you guys want to make is very, very obvious.
Christene: I think that a lot of people lose sleep in this company because they care so much but I think Piera and I-
Piera: I do.
Piera: I know I do.
Christene: I think Piera and I really do because we were the first people to make content for this company. We really feel like, in laying that foundation, we want to make sure that people feel really fulfilled by it. That it doesn’t lose its path.
Nathan: One thing I find interesting is … Our business, we’re a content business as well. From my observation if you want to build influence, or build an influential company, or a media company it comes down to producing more quality content at scale.
I’d love to hear your guys take on that. Is more better or is it … You guys have got a very, very influential brand. How much content do you guys produce now per day?
Piera: I mean, I think influence also comes down to risk taking, as Christene was saying. I mean, it’s the art and the science. I think it’s not just about-
Piera: It’s not just about volume. It’s also quality can be subjective as well but I think it is about risk taking. It’s about knowing that core of who you are and staying true to it. In our case really caring deeply about knowing our audience and how we can serve them, but yeah it is true that I think over time we’ve gone back and forth balancing the … Our heart place of our mission, and what it is that we want to create for our audience, and what we believe in, and what we care about.
Then the metrics that Christene was speaking about of how do we do that and make sure that we’re continuing to grow steadily. That we’re delivering for our partners, that we’re reaching as many people, with the work that we do, as possible. That balance has also shifted because of even things that are external to us.
As with most people in the digital media space we’ve had to shift to fit certain new ways that different platforms are working. Something pops up you have to respond. You have to learn to make content in a new way for a new audience because it’s an opportunity but sometimes that can also be a hindrance. It can mean that you’re at the will of something, an external platform that might not really align with what it is that you think is the best content to create for your audience.
I think that push and pull is something that we’ve-
Nathan: To wrestle.
Piera: … wrestled with for years. I think most people in the industry have.
Christene: I think it doesn’t even have to be a media company. I think it’s any company that’s confronting the need for scale or the opportunities for scale. Honestly if I’ve learned anything in the near 14 years that we’ve been doing this, it’s that it all comes down to the people that you hire because scale is all about the people that you’re trusting to handle the scale.
Piera: So true.
Christene: We’ve had some enormous success with finding people that deeply care about the mission of this company and the mission of the content. It’s possible to be able to produce high volume of content, and do it in a very meaningful, and satisfying way but I think you have really care about each piece and being able to share that expectation with your team because there’s a way to address volume that’s not high quality and there’s a way to do it that is high quality. I think that’s something that we always really strive for but we’ve also learned …
Piera and I are both incredibly hands on. It’s been a real learning curve for us to let go a lot. To allow other people, that in some cases are more skilled, to be able to handle certain parts of the business now. That’s a really big step for any founder. It’s been a huge part of our success too. I think it’s allowed us to grow. I don’t want to speak on behalf of her but I know for me it’s allowed me to find other ways where I can be incredibly influential and useful to the team and to the brand.
Nathan: Yeah. Talk to me … A company is only as strong as its team. What are the things that you guys look for in great talent?
Christene: Oh wow. I mean for me, I just did an interview this morning, and it’s someone that uses the product. Someone that really loves and has a relationship with what we do because it makes … I always say this. It’s like when you bring people onboard that automatically love the company, the love the brand, when things get hard, and they will inevitably get hard, it actually helps those people to deal with the issues that arise and recover quickly. People that don’t have a personal connection to the business that they’re working for, when there are big challenges, or when things fall apart, or there’s a fire drill, it’s really hard to actually solve those problems because you don’t care.
I think that we really feel very proud of the fact that we attract so many people that care about this company and care about the role that we’re playing in people’s lives. I think that that’s a big one. I always really try to gauge … Obviously a person’s skills and experience are tremendously important. You want them to push whatever role it is foreword. You don’t want them to just come in and replace the person that was there before. That’s also on you to recognise what it is we did wrong last time and what it is we want to improve on this time.
The other thing is to just see enthusiasm in that person in the meeting. If they’re not smiling, if they’re not excited about talking about what the responsibilities are, what the opportunities are in that role it’s going to be tough. It will be tough.
Nathan: Yeah. They got to be hungry.
Christene: They have to be hungry and they have to be really eager. Yeah.
Nathan: One thing I really would love to delve a little deeper on is because you guys have got an incredible content business. For anybody that’s watching this, what advice you would give for somebody … This is for startups, this is for someone that has a personal brand or somebody that wants to build a media company. What are some things people should be thinking about of using content as a way to grow their business or their influence and impact other people or communities that they want to impact?
Christene: I think for us, even though it was a number of years ago, I think the motivation to start a business is fairly universal. Is that you feel that there is something missing. You feel that there is something missing and usually you’re not the only person. I think once you feel like there is something missing and you’re interested in potentially creating something that will fill that hole, it’s going about the business of collecting data, and doing your background checks, and all the research you can to see what exactly is this opportunity? Is it an opportunity?
I think that … What I always try to tell people is that when you have that feeling don’t ignore it, don’t ignore it. I think the feeling that I had when I met with Philippe and Justin, and it was because I was coming off of helping to start the magazine that Piera and I met on, is that it’s a lot of work. It’s so much more work than you think it’s going to be starting a business. It doesn’t matter how small it is. It could be 50 people, it could be 5,000 people. It’s really, really hard. It just takes so much time and commitment. More than you ever imagine.
I remember when they were telling me about it and I started getting the feeling … I’ve actually mentioned this before. I was like, “Oh god.” I was like, “I want to do this.” I was so … I was like, “Oh no. Here we go again.” I was like, “I want to do this,” and I knew I couldn’t actually … I knew I was not going to have the courage to step away from it and allow it to happen without me.
I think that those are the moments that … These potential entrepreneurs, when that happens you have to really face the facts that this is going to be scary, it’s going to be a tonne of work. You’re going to make mistakes. You’re going to need the help of a lot of people. A lot of times you’re going to need their help for free. You have to be able to ask for that help, so great relationships really make a difference but I think that those moments exist when you know that there’s … It’s as though life is presenting something to you and you have a choice of either going this way or this way.
I think that people that are serial entrepreneurs, it’s like tattoos and businesses. It’s like people usually have more than one. It’s just an instinct. You can’t really resist it because you know that it’s actually going to have some kind of an effect in someone’s life. It’s going to … Hopefully it’s going to succeed. It will bring a lot of joy and prosperity to people as well, as a byproduct.
What do you think?
Piera: You hit it on the money like always.
Christene: I just think it’s a heart thing. It’s like you think it’s a business decision but it’s so much about your heart and your gut instincts that this is something only you can do. I think that when we look at the great businesses that we really admire, that are so unique and have really left such an important mark in the history of businesses across all disciplines, they’re the ones that only those people could make because they’re just so remarkable and original.
I think that when you have those moments you just really need to listen to that voice. It sounds very woo woo but I really believe it.
Piera: I like it. I have a confession to make, I went off to another place because I was listening to you talk. Christene’s been on maternity leave. I was just sitting here and I was just so happy that you’re back.
Christene: He’s been on maternity leave too.
Piera: I was like, “I’m so happy you’re back.”
Christene: Thank you.
Nathan: That’s awesome.
Christene: That’s so nice. I know after 14 years … Well actually, I don’t … We’ve known each other for so much longer than that now.
Piera: Yeah. It’s so long.
Christene: I know, wow. It’s crazy.
Nathan: Yeah. Well-
Piera: I think also … I mean, I think to build on what Christene said. I mean if you’re getting into it, it’s also now content is such a crowded space. I think it’s so important that you truly know what’s missing. That you really are passionate about delivering that and knowing who else is missing that same thing that you’re missing.
Christene: That point-of-view is solid.
Piera: Yeah. That your point-of-view is really solid. I think it’s important to stay focused too. I mean for us, we’re people that have a bazillion ideas all the time and I think it took us a lot of discipline at the beginning to really channel our ideas into this space that we had, the focus that we had. Then slowly expand that focus over time. I think that’s something that’s … I often tell young entrepreneurs is, it’s good to know where you have opportunity to grow, where you might expand the business but first nail it. First nail it in the space that you’re in or at least give it a good shot because I think it’s really easy to …
I see a lot of young entrepreneurs saying that they’re going to do seven different things well. Especially when you are strapped for resources, when it’s just you wearing all the hats, it’s really hard to deliver on everything. I think really knowing your point-of-view and trying to stay focused in the beginning is really critical to having that first breakthrough that then can lead to that future expansion.
Nathan: I’ve got two more questions.
Christene: You got one more question.
Piera: I liked when you said one.
Nathan: Yeah. I’m going to take two if that’s all right?
Christene: I got one more question.
Nathan: I could talk to you guys all day.
Nathan: Question number one, what do you guys at Refinery29 classify as quality content? Question number two is, where’s the best place people can find out more about each of you and your work? And we’ll wrap there.
Christene: Wow. That really speaks to my heart. Honestly when we’re working through big complicated stories I always tell the editor or the writer, “What’s the headline?” That’s not even just a digital perspective. I think you have to know what the headline is. If that headline, it just is so irresistible to you even before the story is written, it helps to guide you through this very circuitous path to find your way to the purpose of the story.
We’ve all made commitments and read stories that have been ridiculously unsatisfying in the end. You’re like, “Wow, I wish I had those three hours back.” We don’t ever want that. I mean, I think that in … One thing that’s wonderful about the digital space is that it’s incredibly malleable. If we make a mistake or we blow it with a story we’re able to learn from those mistakes and actually do it right the next time.
I really try to encourage people that work on our content to believe that. I think that it’s always about going back to the stories that they’re most proud of. That they really, really feel … That the ones that they got emails about and texts about-
Nathan: Hits a nerve.
Christene: … from people that are outside what we consider the target demographic. We were talking about an essay that did really, really well last week. Actually when we brought it up and we were talking about it in our exec meeting, a few people around the table were like, “Oh my god, I saw that.” One of them was our Chief Council. He was like, “Somebody emailed me about that essay.” That, to me, is the greatest feeling. The greatest success is to know that something struck a cord that is universally felt.
I think that those are the themes that we want to tease out of our stories, is why should people care? I think that sometimes that can be lost in algorithms and certain methodologies to-
Nathan: Get views.
Christene: To get the most … Yes. The most eyeballs to a story. I think that when you start with that it usually leads to really big successes. I think we’re always really proud of that. When we are really proud of a piece or a feature and we know that it actually really mattered in people’s lives. I don’t think there’s any greater reward.
Nathan: Yeah. Incredible. Thank you for sharing. Piera would you like to add anything or …
Piera: Yeah. I mean, I think that-
Christene: Please do.
Piera: I mean I think that quality to us is really, at the core … Yeah. That it matters in someone’s life. That it resonates with our audience. That it’s serving a purpose and it knows what its purpose is to serve, whether it’s educating, it’s inspiring, it’s instructional. That there’s a point to the piece. I think that content can …
Someone could think of, for example, search content, SEO content, as content that’s not quality but the way we think about it is that that’s a moment in someone’s life where they might only ask Google that question. That could be a very, very vulnerable moment for us to show up and deliver something that is thoughtfully researched, beautiful designed. That is inclusively written. To really speak to someone, and provide a deeper service, and an emotional connection in that vulnerable moment. I think it’s really the approach, for us, that determines the quality is that just having that audience at the centre and really having the purpose.
I love what Christene said about the headline too. Even in other creative projects sometimes I challenge the creatives to say, “What would the headline be for your project? What would you want the press to write about this project?” Because it can be extremely …
You could say that for an aspiring entrepreneur too. What is the ideal press headline for your launch because it’s so clarifying as to what it is that you’re actually doing. Really being focused on that intention so that you can actually bring that to life in a meaningful way.
Christene: It forces you to make a commitment. When you get that headline it’s like, “Okay, that’s what I’m doing.” There’s nothing more energising than having that push.
Nathan: Yeah, I love it.
Last question, where’s the best place people can find out more about yourselves and your work?
Christene: I mean Refinery29.
Piera: Probably Refinery29-
Christene: It’s our whole life.
Piera: … or our Instagrams.
Christene: Yeah. Instagram is a good lead.
Nathan: Okay. Awesome. You want to drop the handles?
Piera: Sure. I’m @PieraLuisa and we got @ChristeneBarberich over here. C-H-R-I-S-T-E-N-E Barberich. Do I have to spell that out too?
Christene: Thanks P. No that’s okay.
Nathan: Awesome. Thank you so much guys.
Christene: Thank you.
Piera: Maybe we can drop them in the lower third and meet you.
Nathan: Thank you Piera.
Piera: Nice to meet you.
Nathan: Thank you. Lovely to meet you.
Key Resources From Our Interview With Christene Barberich and Piera Gelardi
- Visit the Refinery29 website
- Follow Christene Barberich on Instagram
- Follow Piera Gelardi on Instagram